Podcast #7 Fire Safety-Ensuring Effective Fire Protection: Intumescent Coating Safety, Application Techniques, and Industry Standards with Nick McCartney from International Fireproof Technology

Ever wondered how intumescent coatings play a pivotal role in fire protection? Join us as we sit down with Nick McCartney from International Fireproof Technology to uncover the secrets behind these life-saving products. From his entrance into the industry to the crucial importance of DC 315 and DC 360, Nick offers an in-depth look at how these coatings ensure safe egress during fires. He shares valuable insights into the technical aspects and safety measures necessary for proper application, while highlighting the ease of use and eco-friendly nature of these coatings. Plus, get an exclusive preview of an upcoming steel intumescent coating set to revolutionize fire safety standards.

Get ready to elevate your application techniques with our essential tips for preparing and applying intumescent coatings. Discover how proper material handling, including heating and mechanical mixing, can help you achieve the perfect viscosity. Find out why mixing coatings for a solid 10 to 15 minutes is crucial and learn how to tackle common issues like clogging. We'll also discuss recent improvements in the viscosity of DC 315, making it easier to apply, and provide clear guidelines on how to thin the product with water effectively without compromising its performance.

Fire protection isn't just about meeting codes; it's about saving lives. This episode underscores the critical role of intumescent coatings in the spray foam industry, emphasizing the need for proper application techniques and rigorous testing. We also talk about the importance of education and SPFA certifications in promoting best practices. Hear real-world scenarios where non-compliance led to costly repercussions and learn how building strong relationships with inspectors and staying informed can set you apart in the industry.

Additional Information and Trainings from International Fireproof Technology

• Link to International Fireproof Technology Inc. (painttoprotect.com) online training
• Applicators are required to complete a job work report to certify the installation, completed job reports can be submitted to workrecords@painttoprotect.com and a job site label shall be completed by the applicator and attached to a prominent location on the job site, such as the electrical panel. https://painttoprotect.com/intumescent-coating-installation-job-work-record/
• USA DC315 Website information to all of our help documents, application guide, evaluation reports all relevant information pertaining to DC315.
  Code Approved 15 Minute Thermal Barriers & Ignition Barriers for Spray Foam Insulation (painttoprotect.com)
   

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Chapters

• 0:00 Safety and Application of Intumescent Coatings
• 9:22 Intumescent Coating Mixing Tips
• 16:24 The Importance of Intumescent Coatings
• 24:25 Importance of Educating on Intumescent Coatings
• 30:40 Importance of Spray Foam Safety
• 35:56 Energy Fox Solutions Event Appreciation

Transcript

Dan: 0:30

Okay, welcome back to another episode of Toolbox Talks on Safety for the Spray Foam Industry. I'm Dan Benedict with Spray Foam Arizona, and over there waving at somebody is Jeremiah Schoenberg from UPC.

Nick: 0:44

Nick, go ahead and introduce yourself here, and you've got Nick McCartney here with International Fireproof Technology DC315.

Dan: 0:52

All right Product that all of us in the industry have probably heard before. Nick, give us a little background history on yourself and how you got into the industry.

Nick: 1:00

So I've been in the construction industry for the last 20 years. I've had my own distribution business tailoring to multifamily apartment complexes and I actually got the opportunity to sell off my company and come over and take this position here with International Fireproof Technology and I wanted to pursue that for the aspect of fire protection and life safety and implementing safety parameters. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into when I took the position Right. I kind of thought I was going to be set up more so as a firefighter, but now I'm in it and like.

Dan: 1:39

nobody invited you to be in a calendar with your shirt off yet, or anything, not yet but I've gotten some requests on Facebook. I'd be leery, I'd be a little leery I'll kind of.

Nick: 1:50

I think some of them were Jeremiah.

Jeremiah: 1:52

I was going to say man, I'm pretty sure it was Dan.

Nick: 1:55

I think some of them are Jeremiah. I was going to say man, I'm pretty sure it was Dan. So I've been with International Fireproof for the last six years now, came on board as a national accounts manager now, and now I've moved into the vice president of sales and marketing. Cool Congratulations.

Dan: 2:10

Thank you.

Nick: 2:11

So pretty much what we do is we try to protect spray foam from fire to meet any of the code requirements and code regulations out there that need to be addressed when using spray foam on the interior side of a building. Perfect.

Dan: 2:26

Awesome and so, like most of us in the industry, have seen the name DC 315. Probably a lot of us have used it. I know there's competitive brands out there and we're sure not promoting one over the other and Nick's like, yeah, we are, but but uh, so, uh, I mean, just give us the background. You DC 315, what other products you guys have? What are you doing? I know it's all based on fire safety and, uh, basically getting occupants safely out of an occupied space. If, on the rare chance that a fire happens.

Nick: 3:00

Exactly that. So our forte is passive fire protection, so to allow enough time for people to egress out of the building if there is ever worst case scenario of fire. We primarily focus on intumescent coatings. We obviously, everybody knows DC 315. That's our product for spray polyurethane foam. We do have another product called DC 360, and that product is used for wood and gypsum applications to increase the fire resistance rating of those type of substrates. If you need to use fire rated wood on an application and fire rated wood was not installed, you can use a product like DC 360 to rate that wood to meet the same requirements.

Dan: 3:42

And you're saying 360, not 315 or 316? 360.

Jeremiah: 3:47

I didn't know if it was just like going in sequential order.

Dan: 3:49

I'm like I'm coming out with 317. I'm taking the market.

Nick: 3:55

No, we just keep adding numbers to our products as we develop them right um, and we have been working on a steel intumescent coating, so we plan to launch that within the next year or so.

Jeremiah: 4:02

Oh, very cool yeah all right, and that's, uh, that. Would that still be a passive, or would that be more?

Nick: 4:07

that would be considered more fireproof. Okay, for steel beams and caps, exactly yeah, it's still going to be a water-based uh low voc product, just like the dc315 nice.

Jeremiah: 4:17

So ease of application is what we try to focus on and the odor from those other ones too is definitely high, so low voc is definitely a good thing yeah.

Dan: 4:27

So those of us that are out there that you know spray and foam, we all run into needing the intimesic coatings on it. Heck it. It's written in the codes, I think in a lot of places. And there's always the argument with code officials back and forth on it. But being that we're focused on safety and, like applicator safety, what safety precautions do we need our applicators to be taking when they grab DC-315? And how do you want them to handle that product at the same time?

Nick: 4:58

For the most part. As far as safety goes, obviously you're going to want to wear all of your PPE your standard proper protective equipment when you're installing any coating. The good thing with our product and most of the intumescent coatings out there available they're low VOC, water-based products, so they're non-hazardous, no harmful VOCs. But you still need to make sure that you're wearing your masks, you're wearing your Tyvek suits, you're wearing your gloves, that you're making sure your crews are addressing all those parameters as well, so you can be the professional on the job site when you're're applying the coding you know we do. For instance, for dc315, we do have a food contact approval.

Nick: 5:39

So kid you can technically eat if you want to. I've tried it.

Dan: 5:42

I wouldn't recommend it so you don't season your steaks with it or anything no, well, I can tell you, solid dressing don't shit fire anymore.

Nick: 5:48

yeah so, but as far as safety, it it's a pretty straightforward application. That's why we developed the product as a single component to try to make the application as easy as possible. Yeah, so, as far as equipment to apply it, standard airless sprayer, you know, I would say the minimum sprayer requirements is a 695 or a pump that has three quarters of a gallon per minute output at about 3000 PSI. Ok, I've done demonstrations where I've sprayed out of a Titan 440. Ok, so if you're in a pinch, you don't have access to a 695 and you've got a project, you know, 2000 square feet, you could spray it with 440. Just make sure you're following the temps on our application guide. You know the optimal material temps would be anywhere from 65 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit.

Jeremiah: 6:42

It mixes up really nice and it helps the sprayability. Make sure you're on a smaller coverage, like you said, 2,000 square feet. If they're using that smaller rig, would you say like they shouldn't, you wouldn't recommend it on larger square footage, right?

Nick: 6:51

Not at all, the main reason being the pumps that size are not set up to spray that type of output with that type of viscosity over time. Okay, so it'll burn the pump up? Yeah, but if you're in a pinch you can spray it. You know, if you're spraying 2 000 square feet, it shouldn't take you more than a couple hours. So you're not going to heat up that pump and burn down but anything larger like yeah, and especially if you're getting into the business of applying it all the time.

Nick: 7:15

I'd go bigger with the pump you should be investing exactly. They could do the production yeah, you get a 1095 or something larger. You could put two sprayers on it. And if you're spraying large projects you know 100 000 square feet, 50 000 square feet you get two sprayers on it. You're killing out that project in half the time, and that's time is money. Yeah so the more efficient, that you can be on your projects. I look at it, that's more money in your pocket.

Jeremiah: 7:38

So the reason I recommend hydraulic machines for anyone that asks like, hey, yeah, it's more expensive, but yeah, what are you doing for a living? Yeah, so, uh, yeah, yeah, spend the extra, but yeah, if you're gonna be doing it for a while yeah, we have an 833 that we already use for acrylic coatings and our roofing side of things.

Dan: 7:56

So we end up, just, you know, clear it out with clean water and switch over when we're spraying. You know large metal buildings and stuff with that deal and it works pretty well. But we go back to the problem I hear from all contractors on any of these intumescent coatings is they plug up tips, like they always plug up tips?

Nick: 8:21

So they plug up tips, like they always plug up tips. So talk us through preventing that and keeping the uptime on those sprayers going. You know when they're applying your stuff. So, like I was saying, one of the most important facts factors that are usually overlooked is material temps Intumescent coating material temp. In 65 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit temp, that mixability and the sprayability coming out from that material will be 10 times better than you trying to mix up a pail that's at 40, 50 degrees. Okay, a big thing that's missed too is guys in the colder climates they'll take the pails out and they'll set them in their shop on the cold concrete ground. When they do that, that pail from the bottom up is now thickening up because it's trying to freeze from the bottom Right. A lot of guys don't understand that or don't really think about that.

Jeremiah: 9:03

Yeah.

Nick: 9:03

So they go to put their mixer in the pail, they go to mix it up and the bucket starts spinning on them. They're like, oh, the material is not good.

Jeremiah: 9:09

I know I have guys that will take off, unload a whole truckload and take it off the pallets I get over there. It's like I'm now going to ask you to re put it on all the pallets, take our stuff off the concrete floor because, yeah, you did all that work for nothing.

Nick: 9:21

Yeah, and it's. I try to resemble the foam. It's no different than foam, like the HFO, if you start taking drums and setting out on the concrete floor it's going to address it. So I try to tell contractors the best thing you can do is, when you kick your heater on to start warming up your barrels, throw your coating in there with it.

Dan: 9:39

Have it heat up with your phone.

Jeremiah: 9:41

Yeah.

Nick: 9:41

And then when you get to the project, by that time you can start mixing it. You'll notice the viscosity, how much looser it is in a difference of 20 degrees. Okay, it loosens up that much, Regardless mixing degrees. Okay, no, it loosens up that much, um, regardless mixing it's not me, oh it's me.

Dan: 10:04

He who cast the first stone should not live in a glass house. Who passed the clicker?

Nick: 10:09

clickered at me, so mixing regardless, okay, back on task yeah, mixing regardless. You want to mix any intumescent coating material for at least 10 to 15 minutes? Um, you can shake it. That helps. The material still needs to be mixed, right? Um? Reason being there are solid content in the material that needs to be mixed thoroughly throughout the entire contents of the pail. So don't pick it up shake it and think it's mixed.

Dan: 10:35

Put it down right, yeah, so I got a bad tire on a trailer right now. If I just carry them in that trailer, that's mixing it pretty well, oh yeah that's, that's fine.

Nick: 10:45

So, and and those issues are are issues that need, that are need to be addressed to not clog your sprayer. You know, the better that you have the mixed material, the easier it's going to flow through your sprayer.

Jeremiah: 10:57

Yeah, I'm pretty sure, dan, the guys that talk about clogging and stuff don't don't do those, those things to stop it. You know, like a lot of mixing and things like that are mixing too little. Or you've got a very high viscosity of material and you're just like, oh, think it's going to work with you, follow the same parameters in normal operating temperatures and once again just like foam when you're outside normal parameters you'd probably pay attention or make a phone call if you don't know, because it changes.

Nick: 11:21

It does. How you deal with it right, it does. One of the best calls I've got was recently, probably a couple of weeks ago. A guy was mixing with a two by four Nice, all right and he's like it's just not mixing up and I'm like how are you mixing? It's like churning butter and butter.

Jeremiah: 11:34

I'd like to say that I've never walked into that. Yes, I have, they think, just because it's a larger drum. I think, maybe, maybe, maybe, but I think I was like no man.

Nick: 11:44

It just doesn't mix it properly and you're going to be fighting it trying to go through your sprayer the whole time. It needs to be mechanically mixed and it helps out tremendously. And in from a difference of two minutes, when you start to mix, you'll notice the viscosity loosened up significantly and recently within the last year it was actually a beginning of this year we've slightly reduced the viscosity of the DC-315 because we're not looking to hang as many mils as we used to.

Nick: 12:12

We used to look to hang 20 to 24 mils in a single coat. Now all of our application rates are anywhere from 14 to 18 wet mils, so the viscosity doesn't need to be as thick to hang that many mils in a single coat. Yeah, now all of our application rates are anywhere from 14 to 18 wet mils, so the viscosity doesn't need to be as thick to hang that many mils. So we've slightly reduced it. So anybody that's been spraying it for the last year, you should notice a pretty substantial difference in comparison to what it used to be okay um, I you always hear the guys that have their magic recipes.

Dan: 12:36

I put, you know, a bottle of water in every bucket or something like that. Can you thin your product down, should you not? I mean, give us the breakdown on what's really legally and actually right with what you've got provided out there?

Nick: 12:52

so I do not recommend adding any water to it. Um, you should mechanically mix it for at least 10 to 15 minutes. Make sure you check your material temps. They're in that 65 to 80 degree Fahrenheit range. Mix it up really well. If it still does not reduce the viscosity to get it to an optimal sprayability, you can add a little bit of water. And when I say a little bit of water I'm talking 250 milliliters of water. So about the first inch of a standard water bottle. Start there. Mix that completely up for another five to 10 minutes, because when you pour water into the coating you'll notice the water just tries to sit on top.

Nick: 13:29

Yeah, so you have to thoroughly mix it back in. If you don't thoroughly mix it back in, it's not going to do anything to adjust the viscosity. I've heard guys adding full water bottles in. If you add too much water, you pretty much just you didn't destroy the coating, but you're going to have runs coming down your foam wall or ceiling. It's because it's going to come dripping and at that point it's going to cost you a lot more time and effort to go back and try to remedy that issue than slowly adding the water into it. Okay, so it may take a little bit more time to mix, but it's better for you in the long run to where you're not just just pulling your hair out watching all this coding that you just paid for run down the walls exactly jeremiah.

Dan: 14:15

No, I was like I'm, I'm like, uh, did you know? I'm like he's gonna say something I'm trying to let you finish.

Jeremiah: 14:21

But I'm also like picturing jobs that I've walked in on that and like, like man, I know exactly what you did. It's like what do you mean? I was like dude. I see it dripping down the wall. Yeah, come on, man, what'd you do?

Dan: 14:33

or the, the. That's why I was laughing. It wasn't what. Yeah, they did a bunch of overhead and there's the, the gray flake rain shower all over the concrete.

Jeremiah: 14:41

We're close, so it looks like stalactites and they're like I don't know, what the problem is. What happened, man, three pound foam. I'm like I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here I added a gallon of water to it.

Nick: 14:51

What's going on?

Jeremiah: 14:52

I sprayed it, it was like 100 degrees.

Dan: 14:54

It's cool, it's, you know, winter right yeah, and you bring up the 100 degrees. We've been talking about this underneath the specified temp. What happens if we get above 85? Because I'm an arizona rat above 85.

Nick: 15:07

I mean you can definitely spray an above 85 degrees fahrenheit. The biggest thing that you're going to want to look for and address is the humidity. You definitely do not want to spray at 85 percent relative humidity yes, viva arizona yeah, you want to keep that humidity range around solid 50 60 percent um is dc 315.

Nick: 15:29

Any intumescent coating for spray foam is water-based, so as soon as you start spraying it you're going to elevate the humidity because the product cures by evaporation. I've felt that Yep, and it can increase by 20%. Easy, easy. And that's the importance of having fans and having adequate ventilation. Another question that I get quite often on when guys have sprayed foam one day and they plan to go back out the following day and they want to start off first thing in the morning and coat Check your dew point Just like foam. Yeah, you know, if you've got condensation on the foam, you start spraying to it.

Dan: 16:03

Yeah.

Nick: 16:03

You're going to have issues with the coating adhering to the foam. So just check it. You know, if you've got to wait an additional hour, that additional hour can save your ass on the coating not failing Right. So you know, I wouldn't recommend having your guys go through wipe it down with rags. I mean you could, if you want just you know, go grab some breakfast or prep, prep some of the other portions of the job, you know, um, but make sure to check those things. It's, it's definitely things that can either make you or break you on the project to where you're profitable or not. Yeah, and we're not in this to do this stuff for free, and that's that's why all of us are here as manufacturers, trying to work together to provide the correct information, to educate the industry, so everybody's successful and they continue to grow in the business.

Dan: 16:44

And Jeremiah, you can comment on this also. But there's times that those of us that you know our main business is spray foam and we'll go through a month and never be on a job that requires something like an intumescent coating month and never be on a job that requires something like an intumescent coating. So guys will get in the mentality of, oh, that's secondary to the spray foam, like we're a spray foam company, we're not an intumescent coating company. Yeah, but one of the things that nick keeps bringing back around to us is it's a lot of the same things timing, dew points, temperatures, uh, you know, yeah, processing guidelines, everything. So we need to quit thinking about something that is out there to save lives more than anything else. You know, spray foams out there to make make us comfortable. Yeah, this is out there to save lives. So, putting proper thought into the application of it, it's not like, okay, that helper over there is the lowest guy in the totem pole, we're just going to go ahead and have him start spraying this coating.

Nick: 17:44

And you're kind of like, okay, it's coming out of the gun, we're going to spray it one of the biggest things that I like to tell people is it's not just a paint, it's an intimate, it's a coating, it's a fire protective coating. So if you can kind of think of it like that, it's not just a run-of-the-mill paint it. We invest countless hours and millions of dollars into fire testing our product, but make sure it works, because you thought that was good oh yeah, you know, I'm just 14 mils run it it'll dark pass.

Jeremiah: 18:14

No, send it yeah dartboard.

Nick: 18:17

You and everyone at dc, just, let's just guess about it, yeah good and you guys know, with the foam manufacturers, there's tremendous amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to make sure our products are approved for use and safe to use out in you know, the residential or commercial environment, right? Um, so it's. I liked it and I try to separate those two things. It's not just a paint, it's a fire protective coat.

Dan: 18:39

Yeah, it's not a paint. Yeah, it does not say paint anywhere on any of the barrels at all.

Nick: 18:44

No, and well, you guys saw the burn demonstration earlier. I mean, tell me, have you ever seen a regular paint perform like that? No not at all. I mean just to alleviate the smoke and create that intumescent char barrier and luckily, we took videos, yeah, so we're going to have videos.

Dan: 18:59

We're going to be able to put up on all of our social media pages and stuff so you guys can see what we're talking about in this demonstration.

Nick: 19:05

And a little disclaimer I do not recommend anybody going out there and burning foam anywhere at all.

Jeremiah: 19:11

Oh, and in the fine print.

Dan: 19:13

Also, when somebody hands you respiratory protection, go ahead and flip the mask down.

Jeremiah: 19:17

Yeah, flip the mask, that does work better when it's on your face it does. Yeah, You're right. No, I was going to say too, like if I'm going to a job and I'm inspecting an assembly, I'm inspecting your guys' product as well. The second it's on there. It's a different story. It's not just foam, it's not just what insulation Like. It's not just foam, it's not just what insulation.

Jeremiah: 19:36

Like you said, we're there to make people more comfortable, but the thing you put an intimacy coating on, it becomes an assembly, that is, is inspected for a reason. Like there's a reason when I go out and I take a sample and I do a mill check with my cool little fricking sight glass and everything else is because that's there for, like you said, egress of the home in a worst case scenario. So it's like it's like it's no longer just soundproofing, it's no longer to make the energy bill lower so you save a little coin at the end of the month, it's to make sure your family gets out. So then it becomes, like I said, it's not a paint, it is a serious protection to the phone so you can get out of that building. And, like I said, I take it a different way when you're talking about it and then when a guy says I want my phone blue so I'm going to paint it blue, I was like no, you're not. It's like can they just tint it? It's like no.

Nick: 20:20

And you can. You can make it blue, you can make it pink, you can make it purple, but you got to put the fire protective coating over it first, you know. Then you can top coat it. So you do, and we've tried to go through it to make sure everybody has options available to fit their individual needs. But at needs, but at the end of the day it's designed to be there to protect from fire, and we all know. And one thing I do want to address because I see it come up all too often on social media appendix x foam does not mean 15 minute thermal barrier. Appendix x foam means ignition barriers. So you do not have to use a coating on appendix X foam if you're using it in attics or crawl spaces. If you're using Appendix X foam in a wall on the interior side of a building where there's people, you still have to apply a 15-minute thermal barrier. Yeah, I see all too often where contractors oh, it's 15-minute rated foam, it's Appendix X, right?

Nick: 21:16

I'm like what are you talking?

Jeremiah: 21:17

about. That's not how it works. It doesn't work. That's not the testing. Yeah, I wish, but no, like you said, it's an assembly that goes together to maintain safety in the building, right, and you try like you brought it up a couple times today when in our presentation too, about apex and everything else just to relay, hey, guys like, guys like oh, I put it up. I always tell guys we talked about the uh, you know, vertical access and horizontal access. I try and tell guys, like a lot, you know, if you have the vertical access door, like pretty much you guarantee you walk up, like I think you were saying before, there's going to be plywood down, there's going to be boxes, yeah, you're going to guarantee storage, right. So it's important for guys to understand like you can't just spray it wherever you want and be like we're good yeah, wherever you want and be like we're good with the Apex stuff and honestly, at the end of the day, it's not my decision or your decision or the homeowner's decision.

Nick: 22:04

If you have an inspector or the third, you have a jurisdiction. It's their decision. So if they feel that it's easy access and that people could store items up there, they may require you. It's out of our hands, you know. We could just try to provide the information to them and maybe the homeowner can make them feel more comfortable that they're going to never put the items up there.

Dan: 22:24

And but it's not up to us at all, yeah, and, at the end of the day, it's not something that's worth cheating. I mean it's it's yeah, my kids live in my house. If something would happen, I'd want my kids to be able to get out of my house without any bodily bodily harm or, you know, smoke inhalation injury, anything like that. It's, it's there.

Jeremiah: 22:47

You still lose jobs because you bid with the coding. You're like I'm not. Oh, is that an option? No, no, no, I separated. So you understood what the cost was was because I know my competition is going to give you this cost with no coding right. But if you don't use us because and you try and subtract, it's not an option that you can subtract, it's an option to understand the cost, yes, well, go, we just take it out. I was like no, if you're going to take it out and go with option b, that's fine, but we will not do this job because, once again, I require, require this in our company. So therefore, sorry, and, like I said, I tell guys, if you lose those jobs, you probably want to. Yeah, exactly.

Nick: 23:21

And that's what I try to educate on all the time. So when you have a contractor that's going in to install spray foam, they're supposed to be the licensed contractor or professional that's following all parameters of that spray foam installation job professional that's following all parameters of that spray foam installation job. So you can't go into a house and have a homeowner sign off on the fact that they can omit a code requirement because you had them sign a document. If there's ever a fire in that house, they're going to come back to who installed the spray foam and they're going to ask these questions on what fire protection did you provide and did you provide all parameters of the code? And if you say, oh, I had the homeowner sign off saying that they were going to apply it, do you think that's going to hold any weight in court? Hell no.

Dan: 24:04

And it's not just the homeowner now, it's when that house changes hands in the future which is common. What they say the average homeownership right now is like five years before people are moving. And what they say the average homeownership right now is like five years before people are moving.

Nick: 24:22

Yeah, you're just sucking that liability up, even though that guy gave you a little bar napkin that says you know, jim Bob ain't liable and that's it.

Dan: 24:25

I hear that a lot.

Nick: 24:25

We're on the sticks we don't have inspectors and exactly.

Dan: 24:29

Oh, we're not inspected out here, it doesn't matter.

Nick: 24:35

And it's funny because a guy last week.

Dan: 24:35

He's refinancing his house. Oh God, and.

Nick: 24:36

Inspector came out, yep, they caught him with no coding. They're making him have the contractor come back and out and apply the coding, right you know. And so in another job I just got from last week 25,000 square foot open they believe it's a food storage facility. They applied dry fall paint. Inspector came out, he's making them. I I don't think they've decided, but they said they were going to make them rip the foam and coating off and reapply the whole thing. Oh geez, so I don't believe. You know, nine times out of ten, if it's a recent job where they catch that, they're going to go after the contractor. That definitely so.

Nick: 25:10

I don't know exactly what's going on now, but there is no intumescent coatings as a fire protective coating for spray foam that can be applied over dry fall or over another paint. It has to go directly to the spray foam because that's the way we test in the laboratory. Now we've also tested with top coats to go over the fire coating and we've we've met that fire testing and it's listed on all of our documentation. We've met that fire testing and it's listed on all of our documentation. Yeah, so in going into documentation the documentation that us, as manufacturers, provide to you it's all done from testing and it's all done from research, and the main component of all that information is to try and reduce liability for you as the contractor out there in the field. So that's why there's all these parameters that we try to enforce and have you abide by. It's to help you.

Nick: 26:02

So if there's any technicalities or legalities that come after something that you've done, you have thorough documentation to provide a resolution for it. Right, you know? And I recommend you know top coats. If there's a protective top coat needed if you're trying to have a homeowner omit the thermal barrier, yeah, copy our literature, put it on your bid submittal package and submit that to the homeowner. Right, you know? And if you educate the homeowner or the general contractor on these items and you're bidding against guys that are not educating, they're going to start questioning why these other bids are so cheap and why these other guys are not informing them about the safety parameters of it. So it's so important if you can educate and represent yourself as the professional out there trying to do it right, even though you're the most expensive bid, you will probably get the job nine times out of 10 because it raises the question To your point.

Dan: 27:01

Exactly Yesterday I was doing specific fire blocking in a barn dominium.

Dan: 27:06

We have one county here in Arizona that's extremely particular about the way fire blocking is done in barn dominiums, and so I worked with an architect in that county to draw up a specific drawing of how to do it and it's submitted in plans of my foam customers in there and I bet I own 90% of the spray foam market in that county, in barn dominiums.

Dan: 27:31

Because of that one piece of paper in dominiums, because of that one piece of paper and I can charge in the thousands of dollars to do that fire block, even though I mean it takes me a full day. I got to drag two pieces of equipment out. I mean it's costly to do it, it's not like I'm just gouging on it, but because of that everybody tells me you're higher than everybody else. I say OK, I know, but let's break it down of why I'm higher. And then every one of those guys goes oh, nobody told me that One guy that didn't listen to us spent about an extra seven thousand dollars stripping all of the foam out of his building because the county said no, this is not safe, it's not done right. It's not fire blocked Right and it just goes back to the same point you're making is sometimes being right is hard, but it sure can pay off Exactly that.

Nick: 28:26

You know we're all here trying to help everybody grow and be successful and make money. You know, if you don't follow these parameters, just like you said, that costs that contractor that much money to cover the homeowner to come back and rip it out and then reinstall the whole project and it's just a waste of time and money.

Dan: 28:42

Yeah, yeah, and a bad light on the entire industry. Yeah, and if an inspector?

Nick: 28:48

came out there. Now you're red flagged with that inspector.

Jeremiah: 28:51

Yes, oh you don't want an inspector to know your name personally. Luckily in this county.

Dan: 28:59

In this particular county, the inspectors have seen us do this fire block stuff enough time on the barn dominiums and the icf houses that my people drop our name. You know the clients drop our name like, okay, we know we're going for this inspection, we know we're going to fail it because the fire blocks them. Then but here's you know dan's paperwork and they go, oh, okay, cool, we'll pick it up on the rough-in inspection, yeah, and they just let it fly, basically because they know it's going to be done right and we guard that reputation, yeah, like fort knox once you get it.

Nick: 29:30

You do not want to lose it, because it can change like that. It sure can, yeah, you know, and it can change by a bad team member or an employee, right? So that's the importance of us doing these events and promoting the education and all parameters in what we do Exactly All right.

Dan: 29:47

So, Nick, every one of these, we we kind of get to this point in the podcast where we try to present a call to action, Like the contractors that are out there spraying intumescent coatings. What call to action would you want to see? What's the biggest thing you'd like to see changed by all of these people that are doing it?

Nick: 30:05

Do not hesitate to call us or anybody and ask questions. Perfect, we have a ton. I mean, I don't know if anybody's ever been on our website no-transcript. You get an opportunity to spray foam. If you're not involved with SPFA, get involved. You know there's SPFA certifications. I'm amazed at how many people have not taken those courses. I don't spray foam. I'm probably going to go take my spray foam certification this year just to have it just to kind of encourage other people in doing that.

Nick: 30:59

You know, the more that we, the more amount of people that we can get involved in trying to engage and promote, you know, doing things correctly within our industry, the better we will all grow together, no matter what we're all. We're all different manufacturers. We compete up against each other. Grow together, no matter what we're all. We're all different manufacturers. We compete up against each other, this than that, but at some point in time, if we don't get a firm hold of it, it's going to be taken away from us, definitely. You know, look at, if you look up north in canada, you know they do a great job. It's all it's out of their hands though, right, you know so and I have a lot of respect for what they they do up there, um, and that's that's what we're kind of where we're at it could, it could turn into, you know, being taken away like that. So the better job we do as manufacturers and distributors of the industry, I think the the longer the long-term hold we'll have on all of it. Yeah.

Dan: 31:48

Jeremiah, what's your call to action out of this one?

Jeremiah: 31:50

Like I said, call, call the. You know the information experts for what you're doing. Don't try and guess. Don't understand the difference between Apex and fireproofing, passive fire protection. You're insulating someone's home, someone's business, where they put food on the table where they live. Just understand what you're doing, be safe. Contact the experts if you have questions. Don't try and guess when it comes to these things.

Jeremiah: 32:14

When you're putting assembly together, make sure you're you're doing it right and you're doing the best you can Cause. Once again, you want to be the knowledge source for that customer, right? Like you said, you give them the information. If you lose a job because you're doing it right, once again that's probably a job you didn't want. Again, most of the time the guys are going to they'll see other bids and they'll see that you explain why you're different and why you're doing it. Most of the time, homeowners especially homeowners be like well, this is my home Should probably research what's going on and what this guy's talking about, instead of just going with the bid. That's. You know. Sometimes they do go for the cheaper bid, unfortunately, but most of the time the informed homeowner will figure out why you're different.

Nick: 32:55

And go talk to the wife.

Jeremiah: 32:57

There you go, there you go, if you explain it.

Nick: 32:59

I'm a family man, I got kids, I'm gonna do the best job that I can at protecting my family and my, my assets. Yes is I'll die for yeah. So if you think I'm gonna cheap out on something that can protect them further, hell, no, you know that's, that's my livelihood, that's my life, that's what I live, know. So, and if people can kind of think of it in that same sense, one of the best things that I do on a daily basis is I take myself and put myself in the other side of the other phone, on the other side of the phone shoots, yeah. So I'm trying to think of of what they're going through and how they're thinking of this thought process.

Nick: 33:33

And it helps me along the way, because in today's world shit's expensive. You know people are having a hard time making it, you know. So any additional cost is definitely a hard cost to soak up, but the only way to really get through it is if you have the education and the information to provide to charge that additional cost. Because if you don't, then you're not, you're not following all parameters and it's going to cost you a lot more in the long run.

Dan: 33:59

Yeah, and what I would add to all of our listeners out there, to what Jeremiah and Nick have already said about our call to action, is don't think of it as a secondary product. This is, it's just dang important to do. Know where you need it, when you need it, when's appropriate and when you're applying it. Make sure you got the right PPE on. Don't be out there in your shorts and you're, you know, worn out ACDC tank top spraying away. You know, with your sunglasses on, get a mask, get a suit, get some gloves and read that SDS on that deal.

Nick: 34:35

Know what you're putting out there and if any questions, we're all available. We're all available. Just call. You know, and I said it earlier, the only stupid question is the question you don't ask. You know that's what our jobs are. We want to help you guys be successful, so you know if we can help you save $100,000 by asking one question that you think think stupid, is it really a stupid question? Nope.

Dan: 35:00

Exactly Not one bit. Awesome, nick. Thank you. We sure appreciate your time coming out here sharing the information. This is going to be a dang good podcast, yeah.

Nick: 35:07

Thank you for having me.

Dan: 35:08

Yeah, all right guys. Again, if you like what we're doing, follow us on Facebook. Spray Foam gmail dot com is our email. If you have any questions, like subscribe on all your favorite podcasts. And again, if you need information on this or any other subject we've talked about, hit us up on one of those. We will get you with the right people. Like said, nick has opened up his door over and over again through this podcast.

Nick: 35:33

If you have questions, just about any of these intimesic coatings at all, anything and it doesn't matter if it's DC three, 15, if it's any of the other products. We want to help you guys out. So if you have questions and you're having a hard time you can't get ahold of somebody, reach out. We're going to help you out whichever way we can. Yep.

Dan: 35:56

And we got to special thanks here for invading the Fox den.

Nick: 35:58

today, energy Fox Solutions, aaron, opened up his office to us for the last two days I'm surprised he's taken it over, I know, but we appreciate his hospitality. Yeah, and I want to say a big thank you to the whole Energy Fox team and all of you guys for having this event and for them opening their doors and facilitating all of this. It's definitely great to see all the contractors out here and see some of the eyes perk up on the information that they're receiving, so that definitely pays for it all right there.

Jeremiah: 36:22

They come through the swag and the food and realize wait a second, I learned something Wow.

Dan: 36:27

Which is great. All right, we'll catch you guys on the next episode.